Dissecting Jill - 05/03/04
(Yes, I realize the irony in having that as a title on a vegan site)
WARNING: Explicit language is used in this transcript
Jill was a troll who liked to come into chat and tell us we're murderers.
She used the same arguments we've heard a million times, we would tell her why
they're stupid, she would tell us them again. Right away it was obvious she was
just using arguments she'd read elsewhere, but this one day it was just
ridiculous. I imagine a lot of you have read Maddox's "Guiltless Grill" article,
here:
http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html
It's anti-veg*n, blah blah blah. If you haven't read it yet, doesn't really
matter, I'll be quoting a lot of it in a second.
You can get to know Jill a little bit by reading some of the chatlog from
the previous day (not the first time she's been in chat, but we usually don't
talk to her). Here are some excerpts:
[14:48:50] <Jill> thats just pathetic- you do nothing! you could do
soooo much more, but it would inconvenience you.
[14:49:27] <Jill> thats whats so pathetic about vegans, they do
as little as they can and brand themselves moral heroes
[14:51:16] <Jill> becasue you cant save your stupid self when
someone makes the point that your diet isnt bloodless
[14:51:31] <Tommy_Gun> We never said it was.
[14:53:05] <Jill> how do you know so much about me that you can
say i dont know about vegansim anyway, thast bullshit too
[14:53:12] <faf> because your arguments are weak
[14:54:14] <Tommy_Gun> Jill, you're hilarious. You ask us how we
know you, when you're the one telling us everything "we've" been saying for
years
[15:02:08] <faf> Jill, you make absolutely no sense.. we tell you
that it's not the point of veganism entirely, and you say it's a weak
argument? there is nothing we can do about animals dying on a regular
basis... if an animal is killed in a wheatfield while wheat was harvested,
then that animal chose to be there. Trying to get nourishment.
[15:02:27] <faf> there is nothing we can DO to stop that... we
can only help by not eating meat.
[15:03:18] <faf> Now an animal on a factory farm was pretty much
raised there to be killed for food.. it had no chance to live a "real" life
[15:03:31] <faf> understand the difference?
[15:03:52] <Jill> no, it was fed, looked
after, faced a humane death and dint have to risk being mangled in a
harvester.
[15:04:00] <Tommy_Gun> hah.
[15:04:06] <Tommy_Gun> risk?
[15:04:06] <Jill> exactly
[15:04:19] <Tommy_Gun> There is no risk for a factory farm
animal. Their death is certain.
[15:04:33] <Tommy_Gun> and "looked after," "humane"?
[15:04:42] <Tommy_Gun> Do you have any idea what you're talking
about?
[15:06:58] <Jill> im not the one with the moral objetion to it-
you kill plenty of animals and pretend your diet is bloodless, im not the one
concerned about animals dying for food- but when theyre pointlessly killed in
wheat fields, that sucks, especially when its casue of a vegan
[15:07:20] <Tommy_Gun> *sigh* Jill. Seriously now.
[15:07:23] <faf> it's not because of vegans.. don't you eat
bread?
[15:07:35] <Tommy_Gun> We're not pretending. How many times do I
need to tell you?
[15:07:43] <Tommy_Gun> Should I type in caps? Will that help?
Ok ok, I think you get it. She likes to tell us what we think and say and do.
One quick comment about the
"it was fed, looked after,"
etc. quote (highlighted up above), which of course
isn't -
true -
anyway,
but let's say it was. Every time you drive a car, or even go outside it's
possible that you will be killed. Is she saying that she'd rather live in a tiny
cage getting fed grain, eventually being killed prematurely, than live a "free"
life? I'm so sure she would.
All right, so here are her stupid arguments follow by quotes from the
Maddox article, followed by me saying why she's an idiot (as if it isn't
obvious). I even color coded all the matching quotes. The point of this page
was not to debunk all her arguments, nor counter Maddox's article. Most veg*ns
already know what's wrong with her statements. The point was to show just how
unoriginal she was. However, I have revised this a little bit and added some more
comments in since I'm posting this on my site.
This next quote is from 05/02, all the ones after that are from 05/03:
[14:43:25] <Jill> thats made irrelivent by the fact that
im not the one with a problem killing animals,
its not made
allright using your argument, its still
killing as a
result of your stupid diet
(and although we also contribute to the slaughter of animals during grain
harvesting, keep in mind that we're not the ones with
a moral qualm about it)
...
So I guess the amount of grain grown for human consumption suddenly
becomes negligible and we can conveniently ignore the fact that animals
are still ruthlessly murdered either way because of
your diet, right?
Damn you stupid vegans for caring! Seriously, if she
"doesn't
have a problem killing animals," then why the hell is she going on and on
about how vegans are killing animals? Who's the hypocrite again?
It's not a result of
"our diet," it's a result
of EXISTENCE. There's no way around that. I also don't know why she keeps acting
like we're talking about HER. We were talking about how if WE ate meat, WE would
be killing more animals...wouldn't THAT make us hypocrites?
So here is the whole log. I didn't say anything until the very end:
[11:58:16] * Jill has joined
[11:58:28] <Jill> hiya, murderers
[11:59:22] * Jill waits to kicked out by vegan hypocrite who cant
defend his diet against any form of criticism.
[12:00:48] <Jill> laa
[12:02:29] <Jill> how guilty you must feel, knowing that your
diet is responsible for the deaths of so many field animals, in reasearching
this i read that there would be
less animals killed if we
were to adopt a non-vegan diet. Isnt that a nice thought- you actually
worsen the problem
Source: "Least Harm Principle suggests that Humans
should eat beef not vegan.", first published in the Proceedings of
Third Congress of the European Society for Agricultural and Food Ethics,
2001
Ah, her "research." One article, besides the Maddox one. Of course,
that article
has
been debunked,
but it's not like she'd listen if I told her.
[12:04:55] <Jill> only the animals you kill are free field animals,
they die becasue their bones are crushed in soy harvesters, and the
meat isnt even used. Its just
cold blooded, pointless murder,
all so that you can get your soya and feel
good about your
'guiltless' diet
...vegetarians don't know what
cold-blooded murderers
they really are.
...
So let me get this straight; not only are animals ruthlessly being
murdered as a direct result of your diet, but you're
not even using the meat of the animals YOU kill?
Do I even need to quote Maddox on that one? The article is CALLED
"Guiltless Grill"
for Vegetarius's sake! I should hope that
everyone reading this already realizes that eating a cow kills the cow AND even
more animals that are in the fields when they harvest food for the cow! Is SHE
using that meat? I didn't think so. All of a sudden she cares if we kill
animals, but it doesn't matter that she kills way more? Gimme a D! Gimme an O!
Gimme a U-B-L-E S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D!
What does that spell?!
[12:06:47] <Jill> and what do you have to say about it??
'were trying to limit the suffering'??
sure as hell doesnt
look like your limiting any suffering at all, unless you happen to go and
grow your own wheat, but now that would
be impractical,
that would be an inconvenience- and you wouldnt want that, now would
you?
Then some of you throw out claims that "we are trying
to limit the suffering."
...
The only option left for you dipshits is to buy some land,
plant and pick your own crops. Impractical?
Yeah, well, so is your stupid diet.
Again, our crime is that we care. I'm fucking sick of the all-or-nothing
attitude. So old. I love how she talks about inconvenience while she does
NOTHING. Pot, meet kettle.
[12:11:31] <Jill> then theres the defence
'were not killing intentionally',
it doesnt work- even if you didnt know about field deaths, you know now-
you cant 'unintentionally' buy wheat products that
contribute to the murder. Thats all your diet is- an excuse to feel
morally superior, but thanks to the fact that you still kill animals, and in
fact more animals, it doesnt work.
The vegetarian response to this embarrassing fact is
"well, at least we're not killing
intentionally."
...
The defense "at least we're not killing intentionally" is bullshit
anyway. How is it not intentional if you KNOW that millions of animals
die every year in combines during harvest? You expect me to believe that
you somehow unintentionally pay money to buy products
that support farmers that use combines to harvest their fields?
I know that's why I do it--to feel morally superior. It's not like I actually
care about animals, humans, or the Earth. This is why we told her to actually go
read about veganism.
If she's asking these questions, she obviously doesn't know what veganism is.
[12:16:29] <Jill> another thing: how can you even justify eating
vegetables, theyre living as well,
how can you put a price on life? What about the fact that
'controll hunts'
are permitted to stop deer eating your precious wheat, and
predator species are introduced
into habitats to get rid of parasites that could endanger your food, how
badly does that
fuck up the natural ecosystem!
Also, many vegetarians don't know (or care to acknowledge) that in many
parts of the United States they have
"control hunts"
in which hunting permits are passed out whenever there is a pest
problem (the pest here is deer, elk and antelope) that threatens wheat,
soy, vegetable and other crops; this happens several times per year.
...
One of the methods they use to get rid of pests is to
introduce a high level of predators
for each particular prey, which wreaks all sorts of havoc on the
natural balance of predator/prey populations--causing who knows
what kind of damage to the environment.
Ah, the old
"living plants" line. I've missed you.
Just the fact that she dropped that line proves she doesn't know what she's
talking about. I really hope I don't have to
explain
why that's a really stupid argument, but really quickly: it's just a lame
semantics argument with no relevance--plants don't feel pain, so the fact that
the word "living" is used means nothing relating to veganism. Veganism is about
reducing suffering. Plants don't suffer.
[12:16:43] <Tommy_Gun> Thanks Jill. Could you paraphrase a few more
parts of Maddox's article? I mean I've read it before, but you seem to like
telling me the same things over and over again.
[12:17:16] <Jill> lets hear your argument against it then?
[12:17:31] <Tommy_Gun> I've already told you. Then you say the
same things, then I tell you again.
Owned.
Ok, so I guess that all pretty much speaks for itself. Here's how it ended:
[12:17:39] <Tommy_Gun> But I still love you Jill.
[12:17:42] * Tommy_Gun hugs Jill
[12:17:48] <Jill> the reason: your argument fails.
[12:18:35] <Jill> whether you love me or not doesnt matter- your
diet=murder
[12:19:19] <Jill> i realise your pretty dumb, im just spelling
out the obvious for you
[12:21:35] <Jill> ive heard your argument millions of times, and
its still hilariously bad. It just makes you seem like even more of an idiot
[12:24:58] <Jill> well, i think ive made my
point. Hopefully you'll change your murdering ways and lose the
veganism, maybe you'll even start your own wheat farm,
maybe you'll do the human race
and commit suicide, can i just suggest
that you make it as quick as painless as possible- unlike those filed animals
you keep murdering, wouldnt want you to be too cruel on yourself. Seeya
around, shithead!
[12:25:07] * Jill has left
She made
HER point? Nothing she said was hers. I would
make a joke about her
"do the human race" quote, but
I'm a better man than that.
Well, maybe this was kind of pointless if you haven't chatted with Jill (or
other omni trolls), but I hope you at least found this somewhat amusing. I think
muppetcow summed it up the best:
Ah...I love it when non-veg*ns get down on the veg*ns for not being veg*n
enough.
